My best friend worked as a critical care/ER Nurse. She often saw patients reach up in death like a child reaches up for a parent to pick them up. Some struggled. And then when my friend whom I attended Emmanuel with died she saw something, had her father write down a number saying it was important and then right before she passed said, “It’s my time “, then closed her eyes in death. I believe we are with our Savior at death in whatever form. I believe when we lose a loved one we are often told whats most comforting. I can fellowship with anyone and would never say someone was a heretic. It’s not my call and people change. Thank you for this post, I plan to share the information with my lunch ladies as we discussed this very subject recently.
Wade, I am so saddened at what is "news" to me about your Dad's passing from this world into the next last year. I have never met either of you but have followed your posts for years now and frequently had the privilege of reading about Paul's position on many diverse topics addressed in your posts. I always admired him and think of him as being an extremely humble, gracious, and wise man who loved his family and who of you loved and was devoted to. What a blessed relationship you have with him.
On this topic of where Paul resides today and in what state of living he is in, this is something that I have interacted with you on numerous occasions in the past so if you could recall any of my comments on that matter, you know where I stand.
I am strongly convinced that at this moment, Paul is consciously and actively in the glorious presence of Almighty God on His throne in heaven. He is not yet in physical form but is very aware of where he is and has the capacity to see, hear, experience, the presence of God and all of those Saints who have entered into that same glory and recognize that according to the identity in which they had while living in this physical realm. He knows that you are still waiting to join him and I know that he is ultra-pleased with his son Wade who is focused and passionate about serving his Lord Jesus WITH WHOM HE IS PERSONALLY ABIDING right now!
I will not go into the multitude of Scripture passages that support and confirm my conclusions on that matter, but they are many and in my estimation, very dominant in portraying this position.
My respect, admiration, and love, for you is not diminished at all by our having a different position on this issue. You are free to be wrong if you choose to do so. (: )
Thanks for this article, Wayne. So I gather we won't all be in heaven looking down on our favorite sporting event? Ha!
I believe in #3 - the intermediate state. Dr. Robert L. Reymond, in his book "A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith," convinced me of this view. If you have the book, you can find this discussed on pages 1017-1018. If you don't have the book and want to read what he said, let me know, and I will copy it for you.
As for questions 2 and 3, all of you who hold different views from Dr. Reymond and I are heretics and I will have to break fellowship with you! Just kidding. I think it's unwise to believe I have a corner on the truth. I am constantly learning, or at least attempting to be constantly learning.
1. Which of the four views of the intermediate state do you hold?
I am an RC Sproul Student (fanboy)...he taught that for a Christian, death is not the end but a transition, and while the soul immediately enters the presence of the Lord, the physical body will be resurrected and glorified at the final consummation. He emphasized that the resurrection of the body, transformed into a glorious and imperishable form like Christ's, is a fundamental tenet of Christian faith and a central part of the Christian hope.
Sproul distinguished between the "intermediate state" (the time between death and the resurrection) and the "final state" (the resurrected life). At death, the Christian's soul goes to be with Christ, experiencing a conscious, disembodied existence. However, the physical body remains buried or cremated until the final resurrection.
Nothing alarming about the other views, I can certainly agree with them. However, putting time and effort into differing views (from a Christian perspective) seems a little silly, sort of like Eschatology, we end up with division. Early believers struggled with the issues of the divinity of Jesus, i.e., Eutychianism, Ebionitism, adoptionism, Arianism...different views...As Christians, we are linked. We will know when the time comes, I'm looking forward to it : )
As a caveat...I follow a Reformed Theology view.
2. Can you fellowship with a Christian whose views differ from yours?
I can fellowship with anyone. Christians are of one body and one spirit; the key word is Christian. Paul managed to love his fellow believers in Corinth, why shouldn't we?
3. Can you avoid labeling fellow Christians as heretics if they disagree with you?
I laughed at this...I've actually been called a Heretic for my Preterist views, from my own family! LOL. The problem with people is that they are more worried about what offends them, or their friends, than what offends God.
Wade!! Thank you, thank you, thank you!! I am currently in favor of view #3 (with reservations) but on your last 3 points, all in favor for the last 2! There are multiple views held by huge historical majorities on the subject of eschatology. It saddens me that many simply cannot apply these 2 points to that subject. But putting that aside, let me offer a point about timing and death and resurrection that you may have heard from me before. Creation is inside a construct of our Creator, time. Where is eternal life, heaven, spiritual realities? Is some of it in a halfway house between time and eternity, or all of it in eternity? Where is the boundary? Whether we sleep until "then" or simply step out of time and into eternity, I submit that we ALL appear to "arrive" at the same "time" from our perspective. Just a thought.
Yes, to that last 3 questions….absent from the body but present with the Lord…some how no body (yet), but definitely in the presence, (aware)….of the Lord…best I can figure out, makes me happy…
Death became the most real to me when I lost my dad, then my niece in a car wreck & my mom, whom I watch as her physical body deteriorated in a nursing home~ I prayed that I would see a miracle watching her leave this earth instead it was an awful experience ~ she was in an unconscious state for a few days. The peaceful look of a resting peace was not on her face. This bothered me to the point of questioning my entire belief that I was physically born into (attended church from the day I was born) as well as spiritually born. I could not get away from the look I had seen on her face, a godly woman who lived everyday to honor her Lord & Savior Jesus Christ. I felt like I was sinking into a dark well of unbelief. I pulled the bed covers up over my head crying out to God, to show me, He spoke to my spirit, what you saw was not her, it was the shell of the earthly sinful tent she dwelt in ~ that gave me so much peace~ I never liked looking at people in their casket but when I saw my mom lying there she looked so good! I took her picture~ sorry this is so long, but I believe like you when we fall asleep in death we immediately step out of the human timeline ~ we are in God’s time which is so hard to comprehend or understand ~ so just like when we fall into a deep nap and wake up it takes a minute to get our bearings~ when we take our last breath eternity starts, when we wake up it will be when the trumpet sounds and the dead arise first~
Childlike faith, whether I’m right or wrong about what happens the second I die , I know Jesus died for me & promised I would be with him for eternity!
1-Which of the four views of the intermediate state do you hold?
I hold most closely to view #4, which is actually not an intermediate state physically or spiritually, but I don’t hold it from a strictly preterist view. Journey Out of Time by Arthur Custance has helped solidify this view, answered a lot of questions, while raising more questions for study. That said, I try not to be dogmatic about it, my views aren’t set in stone, and I try to present them to others as something to give more thought to if they feel led to study it. I’m pleased if that then leads to further conversation.
2-Can you fellowship with a Christian whose views differ from yours?
Yes. Iron sharpens iron. Fellowship requires dialogue. I have yet to find someone who mirrors all my views, thankfully.
3-Can you avoid labeling fellow Christians as heretics if they disagree with you?
If I see them as Christian, how can I label them heretics?
Your comment has given me a lot to think about. At your suggestion, I've been reading Custance. He has some great insights that I'm pondering and hope to write about him and his work soon. Thanks, Daniel!
My best friend worked as a critical care/ER Nurse. She often saw patients reach up in death like a child reaches up for a parent to pick them up. Some struggled. And then when my friend whom I attended Emmanuel with died she saw something, had her father write down a number saying it was important and then right before she passed said, “It’s my time “, then closed her eyes in death. I believe we are with our Savior at death in whatever form. I believe when we lose a loved one we are often told whats most comforting. I can fellowship with anyone and would never say someone was a heretic. It’s not my call and people change. Thank you for this post, I plan to share the information with my lunch ladies as we discussed this very subject recently.
Excellent!
1. I would have to say I to hold to #1 and you quoted great scripture. There is also Ecclesiastes 9:5.
And there are many passages in the NT that talk of the body and being asleep until the resurrection.
As far as for the soul, I get stuck on Luke 16: 19-31!
2. Yes we can fellowship with other Christians whose views are different. That’s like different denominations, but we are striving for the same thing.
3. If I believe in my heart one is a Christian how could I be the Judge to label one a heretic. Above my pay grade.
Love this! Thanks, Ronnie!
Wade, I am so saddened at what is "news" to me about your Dad's passing from this world into the next last year. I have never met either of you but have followed your posts for years now and frequently had the privilege of reading about Paul's position on many diverse topics addressed in your posts. I always admired him and think of him as being an extremely humble, gracious, and wise man who loved his family and who of you loved and was devoted to. What a blessed relationship you have with him.
On this topic of where Paul resides today and in what state of living he is in, this is something that I have interacted with you on numerous occasions in the past so if you could recall any of my comments on that matter, you know where I stand.
I am strongly convinced that at this moment, Paul is consciously and actively in the glorious presence of Almighty God on His throne in heaven. He is not yet in physical form but is very aware of where he is and has the capacity to see, hear, experience, the presence of God and all of those Saints who have entered into that same glory and recognize that according to the identity in which they had while living in this physical realm. He knows that you are still waiting to join him and I know that he is ultra-pleased with his son Wade who is focused and passionate about serving his Lord Jesus WITH WHOM HE IS PERSONALLY ABIDING right now!
I will not go into the multitude of Scripture passages that support and confirm my conclusions on that matter, but they are many and in my estimation, very dominant in portraying this position.
My respect, admiration, and love, for you is not diminished at all by our having a different position on this issue. You are free to be wrong if you choose to do so. (: )
Thanks, Rick!
Thanks for this article, Wayne. So I gather we won't all be in heaven looking down on our favorite sporting event? Ha!
I believe in #3 - the intermediate state. Dr. Robert L. Reymond, in his book "A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith," convinced me of this view. If you have the book, you can find this discussed on pages 1017-1018. If you don't have the book and want to read what he said, let me know, and I will copy it for you.
As for questions 2 and 3, all of you who hold different views from Dr. Reymond and I are heretics and I will have to break fellowship with you! Just kidding. I think it's unwise to believe I have a corner on the truth. I am constantly learning, or at least attempting to be constantly learning.
I need to get caught up on these articles! This subject was always a topic in our family! Great article!
1. Which of the four views of the intermediate state do you hold?
I am an RC Sproul Student (fanboy)...he taught that for a Christian, death is not the end but a transition, and while the soul immediately enters the presence of the Lord, the physical body will be resurrected and glorified at the final consummation. He emphasized that the resurrection of the body, transformed into a glorious and imperishable form like Christ's, is a fundamental tenet of Christian faith and a central part of the Christian hope.
Sproul distinguished between the "intermediate state" (the time between death and the resurrection) and the "final state" (the resurrected life). At death, the Christian's soul goes to be with Christ, experiencing a conscious, disembodied existence. However, the physical body remains buried or cremated until the final resurrection.
Nothing alarming about the other views, I can certainly agree with them. However, putting time and effort into differing views (from a Christian perspective) seems a little silly, sort of like Eschatology, we end up with division. Early believers struggled with the issues of the divinity of Jesus, i.e., Eutychianism, Ebionitism, adoptionism, Arianism...different views...As Christians, we are linked. We will know when the time comes, I'm looking forward to it : )
As a caveat...I follow a Reformed Theology view.
2. Can you fellowship with a Christian whose views differ from yours?
I can fellowship with anyone. Christians are of one body and one spirit; the key word is Christian. Paul managed to love his fellow believers in Corinth, why shouldn't we?
3. Can you avoid labeling fellow Christians as heretics if they disagree with you?
I laughed at this...I've actually been called a Heretic for my Preterist views, from my own family! LOL. The problem with people is that they are more worried about what offends them, or their friends, than what offends God.
Great post!
Great comment, Angel! Our resident theologian, you are! Always appreciate your comments.
Wade!! Thank you, thank you, thank you!! I am currently in favor of view #3 (with reservations) but on your last 3 points, all in favor for the last 2! There are multiple views held by huge historical majorities on the subject of eschatology. It saddens me that many simply cannot apply these 2 points to that subject. But putting that aside, let me offer a point about timing and death and resurrection that you may have heard from me before. Creation is inside a construct of our Creator, time. Where is eternal life, heaven, spiritual realities? Is some of it in a halfway house between time and eternity, or all of it in eternity? Where is the boundary? Whether we sleep until "then" or simply step out of time and into eternity, I submit that we ALL appear to "arrive" at the same "time" from our perspective. Just a thought.
"I submit that we ALL appear to 'arrive' at the same 'time' from our perspective" - Rick. This, my friend, is precisely what I believe. We'll see!
Yes, to that last 3 questions….absent from the body but present with the Lord…some how no body (yet), but definitely in the presence, (aware)….of the Lord…best I can figure out, makes me happy…
Death became the most real to me when I lost my dad, then my niece in a car wreck & my mom, whom I watch as her physical body deteriorated in a nursing home~ I prayed that I would see a miracle watching her leave this earth instead it was an awful experience ~ she was in an unconscious state for a few days. The peaceful look of a resting peace was not on her face. This bothered me to the point of questioning my entire belief that I was physically born into (attended church from the day I was born) as well as spiritually born. I could not get away from the look I had seen on her face, a godly woman who lived everyday to honor her Lord & Savior Jesus Christ. I felt like I was sinking into a dark well of unbelief. I pulled the bed covers up over my head crying out to God, to show me, He spoke to my spirit, what you saw was not her, it was the shell of the earthly sinful tent she dwelt in ~ that gave me so much peace~ I never liked looking at people in their casket but when I saw my mom lying there she looked so good! I took her picture~ sorry this is so long, but I believe like you when we fall asleep in death we immediately step out of the human timeline ~ we are in God’s time which is so hard to comprehend or understand ~ so just like when we fall into a deep nap and wake up it takes a minute to get our bearings~ when we take our last breath eternity starts, when we wake up it will be when the trumpet sounds and the dead arise first~
Childlike faith, whether I’m right or wrong about what happens the second I die , I know Jesus died for me & promised I would be with him for eternity!
Beautiful testimony, Kathy! I absolutely love your last sentence, and the story of how your mom's peaceful state brought you peace is moving.
I'm a 3.5 so can certainly fellowship with others...
Hah! That's good. I'm probably 1.5, myself and sure enjoy my fellowship with you!
1-Which of the four views of the intermediate state do you hold?
I hold most closely to view #4, which is actually not an intermediate state physically or spiritually, but I don’t hold it from a strictly preterist view. Journey Out of Time by Arthur Custance has helped solidify this view, answered a lot of questions, while raising more questions for study. That said, I try not to be dogmatic about it, my views aren’t set in stone, and I try to present them to others as something to give more thought to if they feel led to study it. I’m pleased if that then leads to further conversation.
2-Can you fellowship with a Christian whose views differ from yours?
Yes. Iron sharpens iron. Fellowship requires dialogue. I have yet to find someone who mirrors all my views, thankfully.
3-Can you avoid labeling fellow Christians as heretics if they disagree with you?
If I see them as Christian, how can I label them heretics?
God bless.
Your comment has given me a lot to think about. At your suggestion, I've been reading Custance. He has some great insights that I'm pondering and hope to write about him and his work soon. Thanks, Daniel!