Wade, you and I agree on just about everything but this is one issue in which we have great differences in the interpretation of Scripture and projection of the "context" in which it is given.
You can count on living on this planet for eternity if you choose. I intend to spend eternity in God's newly created realm which follows and will replace the current arrangement when the separate physical and spiritual realms are no longer necessary.
I'll be spending eternity in that wondrous realm God is preparing for His Saints which Scripture labels as being"The New Heaven and The New Earth".
Scripture indeed stresses that the "old", former, physical realm of this Earth and the heavens will be totally and utterly dissolved and cease to exist following the Millennium Age. As the conclusion of that coming Millennium Age arrives, this contemporary, physical, worldly realm used to separate Saints on earth from those who had died and were in God's Heavenly spiritual realm, will become unnecessary. At that time, there will no longer be a need for a "physical" and "spiritual" paradigm. The Bible explains that it will ALL become "one place" for us to abide. No "death". No "heaven". No "earth". No longer will the Saints of God be separated by the existence of two realms. It will all become "one".
Those Saints living in the contemporary spiritual realm of Heaven with Jesus until His return will all vacate heaven and come with Him. They will receive their resurrected, eternal bodies and be joined in the air by those Saints living on earth at the time of His return and they too will be transformed into their eternal, supernatural bodies. All will be sanctified, unblemished, Saints with eternal bodies modeled by that of our resurrected Lord Jesus.
Then all of God's Saints will be together to reign with King Jesus on this earth for 1,000 years. But that condition will not be final. The Bible describes that the world's end is not yet come until the end of that Millennium Age.
At its conclusion there will be a final judgment on earth following Satan's release from his bondage in the abyss when the earthly realm of King Jesus' Millennium realm will be challenged. Satan and his forces will of course be obliterated and at that time God will bring this current world to an end.
This earth will be dissolved following the end of The Millennium Kingdom and then it will utterly cease to exist. It will be destroyed as the new, eternal, "New Heaven and New Earth" realm is introduced and replaces all creation that existed before it.
As I review all of those Scripture passages you offer as support for this planet continuing eternally, it seems to be outside of the context of the total display of God's provision for the eternal residence for His People. There are simply too many contradictions when attempting to apply your interpretation with other Scripture which project clear differences when translated literally.
Admittedly, there are many astute, Biblical scholars who agree with your conclusion and hold to the concept that this planet will never cease to exist. I understand the tendency to hold to that version. This world is indeed a beautiful and wonderful creation given to us by God. I love this world and am committed to doing my part to respect and protect it as my God given responsibility. But it is only here for a season, not eternity.
I heard one acclaimed TV Pastor Celebrity justifying this position of the world being eternal based on how much he loves the ocean and coasts saying he cannot believe that there "will literally no longer be any seas" as The Bible actually states the situation will be in the future.
It seems to me that the tendency to conclude that this world will forever be the residence for God's Saints is heavily influenced by our love for this world and perhaps our having limited vision for just how much more God has in store for us. Of course we all become used to what we have always had.
We cannot in our wildest imagination conceive of a residence that would exceed this world transformed into that "Millennium" description in its beauty and loveliness.
Yet it would be impossible for this Earth in its most extreme transformation described in its final "Millennium Age" to match the wonder and beauty of the eternal realm that lies beyond that.
"The New Heaven and The New Earth" that is described in Chapters 21 and 22 of The Book of Revelation will surpass any existence formerly experienced. That will be a residence that will far exceed this world in terms of its beauty, and its amazing and wondrous provision for the realm in which we will reside throughout eternity. There we Saints will finally reside in the glory and infinite radiance of Almighty God that is beyond our ability to describe. The current physical reality could not contain it.
However, praise God that our salvation does not depend upon which version our interpretation on this subject leads us to hold. We are brothers in Christ and we will absolutely spend eternity together.
Yet for me, you can choose to imagine staying here in this world forever. I'm going on to that place The Bible displays! :)
As always, love your Spirit and your comments! I'm not trying to convince you that I'm right, and I freely admit I could be wrong, though I don't think I am on this point. John Owen, Martin Luther, N.T. Wright and a host of other theologians from centuries past and present believe my position is biblical. Here's a few things to consider:
1. The nation of Israel is called "heaven and earth" (see
2. The Temple in Jerusalem was built as a replica of the heavens and earth - "Psalm 78:69 says: "He built his sanctuary like the high heavens, like the earth, which he has founded for ever."
3. When Moses and Isaiah called the nation of Israel together to speak to them, they both called the people of Israel "heaven and earth" (see Deuteronomy 32:1 and Isaiah 1:2).
4. When "heaven and earth passes away," that's a prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple (e.g. the nation of Israel) and the establishment of the Old Covenant and the inauguration of a New Covenant ("My word shall abide forever") so that the Laws of the Mosaic Covenant (ceremonial, sacrificial, legal) are "gone" and now we are listen to the words of Jesus ("acoute auton" - Hear HIM!" - the Creator tells us).
5. The "new heavens and the new earth" is simply the New Covenant.
Listen to John Owen's commentary on 2 Peter 3
"The apostle makes a distribution of the world into heaven and earth, and says they “were destroyed with water, and perished.” We know that neither the fabric nor substance of the one or other was destroyed, but only men that lived on the earth. The apostle tells us (2 Pet 3:5) of the heaven and earth that were then, and were destroyed by water, distinct from the heavens and the earth that were now, and were to be consumed by fire. Yet, as to the visible fabric of heaven and earth, they were the same both before the flood and in the apostle’s time, and continue so to this day. But it is certain that the heavens and earth, whereof he spake, were to be destroyed and consumed by fire in that generation. We must, then … consider what the apostle intends by the heavens and the earth.…
First, it is certain that what the apostle intends by the “world”—with its heaven, and earth (2 Pet 3:5–6), which was destroyed by water—the same, or somewhat of that kind, he intends by “the heavens and the earth” that were to be consumed and destroyed by fire (2 Pet 3:7). Otherwise there would be no coherence in the apostle’s discourse, nor any kind of argument, but a mere fallacy of words.
Second, it is certain, that, by the flood, the world, or the fabric of heaven and earth, was not destroyed, but only the inhabitants of the world. Therefore, the destruction intimated to succeed by fire, is not of the substance of the heavens and the earth, which shall not be consumed until the last day, but of persons or men living in the world.
Third, we must consider in what sense men living in the world are said to be the “world,” and the “heavens and earth” of it. I shall only insist on one instance to this purpose, among many that may be produced, Isaiah 51:15–16. The time when the work here mentioned—of planting the heavens, and laying the foundation of the earth—was performed by God, was when he “divided the sea” (Isa 51:15), and gave the law (Isa 51:16), and said to Zion, “You are My people.” This is when He took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a church and state. Then He planted the heavens, and laid the foundation of the earth:—made the new world; that is, brought forth order, and government, and beauty, from the confusion wherein before they were. This is the planting of the heavens, and laying the foundation of the earth in the world. And hence it is, that when mention is made of the destruction of a state and government, it is in that language which seems to set forth the end of the world. So Isaiah 34:4, which is yet but the destruction of the state of Edom. The like also is affirmed of the Roman Empire (Rev 6:14); which the Jews constantly affirm to be intended by Edom in the prophets. And in our Savior Christ’s prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem (Matt 24), He sets it out by expressions of the same importance. It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by “heavens” and “earth,” the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, are often understood. So were the heavens and earth—that world which then was—destroyed by the flood.
Fourth, on this foundation I affirm, that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter—the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment, and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth—do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state. For which, I shall offer these two reasons, of many that might be insisted on from the text:
(1.) Because whatever is here mentioned was to have its peculiar influence on the men of that generation. Peter speaks of that wherein both the profane scoffers and those scoffed at were concerned, and that as Jews—some of them believing, others opposing the faith. Now, there was no particular concernment of that generation—nor in that sin, nor in that scoffing—as to the day of judgment in general. But there was a peculiar relief for the one and a peculiar dread for the other at hand, in the destruction of the Jewish nation. And, besides, [this destruction was] an ample testimony, both to the one and the other, of the power and dominion of the Lord Jesus Christ;—which was the thing in question between them.
(2.) Peter tells them, that, after the destruction and judgment that he speaks of, 2 Peter 3:13, “We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,” etc. They had this expectation. But what is that promise? Where may we find it? Why, we have it in the very words and letter, Isaiah 65:17. Now, when shall this be that God will create these new heavens and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness?” Saith Peter, “ It shall be after the coming of the Lord, after that judgment and destruction of ungodly men, who obey not the gospel, that I foretell.” But now it is evident from this place of Isaiah, with Isaiah 65:21–22, that this is a prophecy of Gospel times only; and that the planting of these new heavens is nothing but the creation of gospel ordinances to endure for ever. The same thing is so expressed in Hebrews 12:26–28.
This being, then, the design of the place, I shall not insist longer on the context, but briefly open the words proposed, and fix upon the truth contained in them:—
Peter's appeal to the early Jewish Christians was simply to put their faith in the words of their Savior and not the Old System of Israel which was about to be destroyed ("heaven and earth") - “Seeing that I have evinced that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved,—that is, destroyed; and that, in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned,—in a way of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword;—let others mock at the threats of Christ’s coming,—He will come, He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted,—the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and worship,—the whole OLD world of worship and worshippers (e.g. the Old Covenant) that stand out in their [stubbornness] against the Lord Christ, —shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed. This, we know, shall be the end of these things, and that shortly.”
Thank you for your patience and sharing your additional insights on this, Wade. You are a great motivator as always.
I will definitely review all of these sources you provide and try to assimilate things in the entirety of thought. Particularly important to strive to arrive upon a position in which we can feel reasonably confident when we are called upon to teach.
Wade, you and I agree on just about everything but this is one issue in which we have great differences in the interpretation of Scripture and projection of the "context" in which it is given.
You can count on living on this planet for eternity if you choose. I intend to spend eternity in God's newly created realm which follows and will replace the current arrangement when the separate physical and spiritual realms are no longer necessary.
I'll be spending eternity in that wondrous realm God is preparing for His Saints which Scripture labels as being"The New Heaven and The New Earth".
Scripture indeed stresses that the "old", former, physical realm of this Earth and the heavens will be totally and utterly dissolved and cease to exist following the Millennium Age. As the conclusion of that coming Millennium Age arrives, this contemporary, physical, worldly realm used to separate Saints on earth from those who had died and were in God's Heavenly spiritual realm, will become unnecessary. At that time, there will no longer be a need for a "physical" and "spiritual" paradigm. The Bible explains that it will ALL become "one place" for us to abide. No "death". No "heaven". No "earth". No longer will the Saints of God be separated by the existence of two realms. It will all become "one".
Those Saints living in the contemporary spiritual realm of Heaven with Jesus until His return will all vacate heaven and come with Him. They will receive their resurrected, eternal bodies and be joined in the air by those Saints living on earth at the time of His return and they too will be transformed into their eternal, supernatural bodies. All will be sanctified, unblemished, Saints with eternal bodies modeled by that of our resurrected Lord Jesus.
Then all of God's Saints will be together to reign with King Jesus on this earth for 1,000 years. But that condition will not be final. The Bible describes that the world's end is not yet come until the end of that Millennium Age.
At its conclusion there will be a final judgment on earth following Satan's release from his bondage in the abyss when the earthly realm of King Jesus' Millennium realm will be challenged. Satan and his forces will of course be obliterated and at that time God will bring this current world to an end.
This earth will be dissolved following the end of The Millennium Kingdom and then it will utterly cease to exist. It will be destroyed as the new, eternal, "New Heaven and New Earth" realm is introduced and replaces all creation that existed before it.
As I review all of those Scripture passages you offer as support for this planet continuing eternally, it seems to be outside of the context of the total display of God's provision for the eternal residence for His People. There are simply too many contradictions when attempting to apply your interpretation with other Scripture which project clear differences when translated literally.
Admittedly, there are many astute, Biblical scholars who agree with your conclusion and hold to the concept that this planet will never cease to exist. I understand the tendency to hold to that version. This world is indeed a beautiful and wonderful creation given to us by God. I love this world and am committed to doing my part to respect and protect it as my God given responsibility. But it is only here for a season, not eternity.
I heard one acclaimed TV Pastor Celebrity justifying this position of the world being eternal based on how much he loves the ocean and coasts saying he cannot believe that there "will literally no longer be any seas" as The Bible actually states the situation will be in the future.
It seems to me that the tendency to conclude that this world will forever be the residence for God's Saints is heavily influenced by our love for this world and perhaps our having limited vision for just how much more God has in store for us. Of course we all become used to what we have always had.
We cannot in our wildest imagination conceive of a residence that would exceed this world transformed into that "Millennium" description in its beauty and loveliness.
Yet it would be impossible for this Earth in its most extreme transformation described in its final "Millennium Age" to match the wonder and beauty of the eternal realm that lies beyond that.
"The New Heaven and The New Earth" that is described in Chapters 21 and 22 of The Book of Revelation will surpass any existence formerly experienced. That will be a residence that will far exceed this world in terms of its beauty, and its amazing and wondrous provision for the realm in which we will reside throughout eternity. There we Saints will finally reside in the glory and infinite radiance of Almighty God that is beyond our ability to describe. The current physical reality could not contain it.
However, praise God that our salvation does not depend upon which version our interpretation on this subject leads us to hold. We are brothers in Christ and we will absolutely spend eternity together.
Yet for me, you can choose to imagine staying here in this world forever. I'm going on to that place The Bible displays! :)
As always, love your Spirit and your comments! I'm not trying to convince you that I'm right, and I freely admit I could be wrong, though I don't think I am on this point. John Owen, Martin Luther, N.T. Wright and a host of other theologians from centuries past and present believe my position is biblical. Here's a few things to consider:
1. The nation of Israel is called "heaven and earth" (see
2. The Temple in Jerusalem was built as a replica of the heavens and earth - "Psalm 78:69 says: "He built his sanctuary like the high heavens, like the earth, which he has founded for ever."
3. When Moses and Isaiah called the nation of Israel together to speak to them, they both called the people of Israel "heaven and earth" (see Deuteronomy 32:1 and Isaiah 1:2).
4. When "heaven and earth passes away," that's a prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple (e.g. the nation of Israel) and the establishment of the Old Covenant and the inauguration of a New Covenant ("My word shall abide forever") so that the Laws of the Mosaic Covenant (ceremonial, sacrificial, legal) are "gone" and now we are listen to the words of Jesus ("acoute auton" - Hear HIM!" - the Creator tells us).
5. The "new heavens and the new earth" is simply the New Covenant.
Listen to John Owen's commentary on 2 Peter 3
"The apostle makes a distribution of the world into heaven and earth, and says they “were destroyed with water, and perished.” We know that neither the fabric nor substance of the one or other was destroyed, but only men that lived on the earth. The apostle tells us (2 Pet 3:5) of the heaven and earth that were then, and were destroyed by water, distinct from the heavens and the earth that were now, and were to be consumed by fire. Yet, as to the visible fabric of heaven and earth, they were the same both before the flood and in the apostle’s time, and continue so to this day. But it is certain that the heavens and earth, whereof he spake, were to be destroyed and consumed by fire in that generation. We must, then … consider what the apostle intends by the heavens and the earth.…
First, it is certain that what the apostle intends by the “world”—with its heaven, and earth (2 Pet 3:5–6), which was destroyed by water—the same, or somewhat of that kind, he intends by “the heavens and the earth” that were to be consumed and destroyed by fire (2 Pet 3:7). Otherwise there would be no coherence in the apostle’s discourse, nor any kind of argument, but a mere fallacy of words.
Second, it is certain, that, by the flood, the world, or the fabric of heaven and earth, was not destroyed, but only the inhabitants of the world. Therefore, the destruction intimated to succeed by fire, is not of the substance of the heavens and the earth, which shall not be consumed until the last day, but of persons or men living in the world.
Third, we must consider in what sense men living in the world are said to be the “world,” and the “heavens and earth” of it. I shall only insist on one instance to this purpose, among many that may be produced, Isaiah 51:15–16. The time when the work here mentioned—of planting the heavens, and laying the foundation of the earth—was performed by God, was when he “divided the sea” (Isa 51:15), and gave the law (Isa 51:16), and said to Zion, “You are My people.” This is when He took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a church and state. Then He planted the heavens, and laid the foundation of the earth:—made the new world; that is, brought forth order, and government, and beauty, from the confusion wherein before they were. This is the planting of the heavens, and laying the foundation of the earth in the world. And hence it is, that when mention is made of the destruction of a state and government, it is in that language which seems to set forth the end of the world. So Isaiah 34:4, which is yet but the destruction of the state of Edom. The like also is affirmed of the Roman Empire (Rev 6:14); which the Jews constantly affirm to be intended by Edom in the prophets. And in our Savior Christ’s prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem (Matt 24), He sets it out by expressions of the same importance. It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by “heavens” and “earth,” the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, are often understood. So were the heavens and earth—that world which then was—destroyed by the flood.
Fourth, on this foundation I affirm, that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter—the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment, and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth—do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state. For which, I shall offer these two reasons, of many that might be insisted on from the text:
(1.) Because whatever is here mentioned was to have its peculiar influence on the men of that generation. Peter speaks of that wherein both the profane scoffers and those scoffed at were concerned, and that as Jews—some of them believing, others opposing the faith. Now, there was no particular concernment of that generation—nor in that sin, nor in that scoffing—as to the day of judgment in general. But there was a peculiar relief for the one and a peculiar dread for the other at hand, in the destruction of the Jewish nation. And, besides, [this destruction was] an ample testimony, both to the one and the other, of the power and dominion of the Lord Jesus Christ;—which was the thing in question between them.
(2.) Peter tells them, that, after the destruction and judgment that he speaks of, 2 Peter 3:13, “We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,” etc. They had this expectation. But what is that promise? Where may we find it? Why, we have it in the very words and letter, Isaiah 65:17. Now, when shall this be that God will create these new heavens and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness?” Saith Peter, “ It shall be after the coming of the Lord, after that judgment and destruction of ungodly men, who obey not the gospel, that I foretell.” But now it is evident from this place of Isaiah, with Isaiah 65:21–22, that this is a prophecy of Gospel times only; and that the planting of these new heavens is nothing but the creation of gospel ordinances to endure for ever. The same thing is so expressed in Hebrews 12:26–28.
This being, then, the design of the place, I shall not insist longer on the context, but briefly open the words proposed, and fix upon the truth contained in them:—
Peter's appeal to the early Jewish Christians was simply to put their faith in the words of their Savior and not the Old System of Israel which was about to be destroyed ("heaven and earth") - “Seeing that I have evinced that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved,—that is, destroyed; and that, in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned,—in a way of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword;—let others mock at the threats of Christ’s coming,—He will come, He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted,—the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and worship,—the whole OLD world of worship and worshippers (e.g. the Old Covenant) that stand out in their [stubbornness] against the Lord Christ, —shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed. This, we know, shall be the end of these things, and that shortly.”
Thank you for your patience and sharing your additional insights on this, Wade. You are a great motivator as always.
I will definitely review all of these sources you provide and try to assimilate things in the entirety of thought. Particularly important to strive to arrive upon a position in which we can feel reasonably confident when we are called upon to teach.
Love it!